Not A Christian Anymore

On my msn I put this title which drew curious messages from Francie and Jo. Francie is my first Christian sister I met in Baptism Church in Tainan. She is a good, generous and cat-loving sister. She bought her home on loan, while her mother and younger sister currently live in the United States. Jo is one of Bernice's friends, I met her in a badminton game and we'd been to movies twice, she's a nice, clever and talkative girl.

To them both I explained why I made this decision, and especially with Francie, we had a long discussion about it. Here in the following is the content we discussed earlier yesterday with the format being slightly reorganised (it looks a bit messy if I simply copy and paste the conversation from the msn history.)

Yet before going on, I would like to share what I came to realise this afternoon about Trinity.

During the past few months I have been thinking about such things including the meaning of Trinity which has confused me a lot and is truly hard to understand. This afternoon when I was drinking a mug of instant coffee a sudden thought ran through my mind. I picked up the wrapping bag of the instant coffee which was written "2 in 1". My thought started rushing in my mind..."2 in 1...the previous type I drank was 3 in 1..."

3 in 1, coffee, coffee mate and sugar. Yes, coffee mate is not the same as sugar, and surely sugar cannot be coffee, yet these "three in one" makes a cup of drink with good flavour. Isn't this just the same as Trinity? Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they are in one, yet each of them is different individual. They are of different essence, which means the idea of Trinity is incorrect and not reasonable at all.

I still believe the existance of God, yet with the unclear and tricky meaning of Trinity, I then have decided to be a non-Christian.

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Francie: WHAT??? what do you mean by not a Christian anymore???

Eugene: Hmm..don't want to be a Christian, surprised right? I'm surprised at this decision I made

Francie: what happened?? I mean, you knew God, and you knew God is real.. right?

Eugene: no, I wouldn't say I know God because He is much greater beyond my understanding. there are some reasons I have been thinking before making this decision

Francie: come on let's talk about it...I hate to say a brother falls away. I mean, though we don't talk that much, but you're always gonna be my brother in Christ
Eugene: sure, but....can we talk later because I need to take a nap ^^

Francie: ha.. ok.
Eugene: I know, I can feel that from you. catch you later

Francie: anyways, let's find a time to talk! happy napping!
Eugene: I mean I believe you. sure!

Eugene: back
Francie: that was quick...ok... talk. What made you decide this??

Eugene: oh you're online. I thought you left
Francie: just got back on again.

Eugene: back. Sorry I was replying email to a supplier. well....let me think where to start....probably for two main reasons
Francie: ?

Eugene: one is about Trinity. the other is about people……sorry four reasons, scientific perspective and…how to say.....the fourth one I can explain, but I don't know the "title"

Francie: well, I don't deny the fact that after become a Christian, we still have problems... probably more conflicts than before we are Christians. But remember when you believed?? it was simple faith... it was not about science, or how well we understand Trinity... or anything else. it was simple touch by the Holy Spirit... and we believe, right?

Eugene: sorry I will reply late occasionally, just some telephone calls coming in sometimes…I know what you mean, but I can't ignore what science says. for me I believe if God is greater than anything, science and religion should be both included in Him. some people said "Big Bang is a big joke". I don't like a comment like this, those scientists have spent their whole life time researching

Francie: well, there are A LOT of things science still can't explain... maybe one day when science can explain it all it will include God. ^__^ that's how I see it...

Eugene: like devote their life on it. And a Christian can simply put our their hands and say it's a big joke, I can't agree with this

Francie: but brother, we don't have to agree with everything ah...it's OK to disagree....

Eugene: yes I know what you said, so I wouldn't decide this just because of this one reason. maybe you would think this funny, but for me it's different. a question I asked John before was animal appeared first or Adam

Francie: doesn't it say in Genisis??

Eugene: some people told me it doesn't matter which appeared first, but this is important for me

Francie: I think animal first... if I remember correctly....

Eugene: in chapter one it said animal was made first, then chapter 2 God wanted the man to have friends, so He made animal from, mud or dust…I think it's mud…it's important for me to know as much as possible, or it would be blind faith

Francie: actually faith is sort of blind... haha. look at Hebrews 11:1

Eugene: which version?...oh...

Francie: I think it all says about the same... about faith is believing what you don't see with your eyes...that's pretty blind... in the world's way. I think it's all about if we want kingdom living or world living...

Eugene: I admit I don't have much faith, haha

Francie: I mean, we do live in this world, but we are not OF this world. it's not easy, and it takes pure faith sometimes to convince myself not to give up.

Eugene: give up what?

Francie: give up living in the kingdom... not let the world's way affect my thinking or actions

Eugene: world's way....I think this is about another reason I have. I see many people who always ask for prayers because of the "suffering" from their working places or conflicts between them and landlords maybe. I noticed it seems easy for them to see other people as "enemy" when they come to argument or conflict, but they themselves don't seem to see their own problems. I told my pastor before leaving the church, I said "it feels like Christians are like a bunch of kids being spoiled", they don't see their own blind spots

Francie: nobody's perfect, and Christians certainly are not perfect people
Eugene: always asking for prayers to "pray for their enemy", whom is human and loved by God too

Francie: and we should hate the sins, not the people. God loves all people...and want no one to perish

Eugene: I know no one is perfect, but that shouldn't be an excuse. i've been missing John a lot even now. One day in their house he told me, God helps us pick up our blind spots. I forgot next on what exactly he told me, I just remember he said we need to be aware of our own blind spot too. I always remember this. when I found many people don't seem to notice their own problems, always thinking they're "fighting with Satan, with enemies", I just can't stand that...and talk of "fighting with enemies", "suffering", "under devil's attack", I asked my pastor "if we always think our daily issues as attacks or suffering, what about those who died in civil wars in Africa"? have you watched Blood Diamond? Blood Diamond is a movie talking about diamond being dug and transferred and sold to Western nations. they get huge profits from that. and because so many people want that profit

Francie: sometimes fighting against ourselves is fighting with satan ah...when we try to put death our own flesh every single day

Eugene: lots of kids are grabbed to armed forces as child soldiers. and killings happen even nowadays

Francie: I know...

Eugene: killings happen, those kids cannot enjoy their life and die of very young age. and we here in taiwan, dealing with our daily duties, having problems in our working places and then go to church asking people for prayers…for me we are spoiled kids. i'm not putting hardship on myself, but we do need to look into our hearts and ask ourselves "have I done wrong? what can I do to change it?" instead of asking for prayers

Francie: actually, I think that's Holy Spirit's job... He will remind us what we did wrong...but sadly a lot of people ignore His voice...and refuse to change...

Eugene: being blinded right? so for me that's 50-50. God has done his part, His 50%, and we each has our 50%. we need to listen, need to inspect our hearts…to be honest I have no idea at all about how the kingdom would be like. I just know I live in NOW. there are many unpeaceful things going around. probably I can do something, this is what I wish to do when I can afford. you know this summer I had 13 days holiday, originally I planned to volunteer in Nepal as a teacher in an orphanage; but the visa fee was too high, a bit over my budget, so I had to give it up.....

Francie: what a shame! but I think God sees your heart..He will open doors for you, but you can't choose to walk away from God lah...

Eugene: well, this is another issue, sometimes I think I believe in God, but probably not the God the church told me. He is much much greater than that

Francie: well, the most important thing is your relationship with God, not the church. I mean, we are the church

Eugene: sometimes the teachings at church make me wonder "is that really what God will do?"

Francie: you can question, and you can ask God. I know He will be very happy to let the HS tell you the right answer

Eugene: but you are influenced by people in church, right? I mean, you wanna do something, but “the authority” has different view and hence doesn't agree with what you wanna do. what would you do? would you give up on something you have considered and prayed for so long and finally you can do it, or would you just go for it because it's between you and God?

Francie: well, painfully enough, but we do have to submit to authority…it depends on what things…but I will think you should definitely do whatever God asks you to do. Sometimes even your pastor doesn't understand, but if you know clearly that's what God wants, just do it

Eugene: if you put into deep thinking about what you're gonna do, even “the authority" does not agree, will you do it anyway? I mean when you're sure that's what God prepares for you

Francie: just do it ah... unless you need the church help you do it, then you need to listen to your pastor. because he has the authority to say no

Eugene: some friends told me, I don't have to let the word influence me. I was the one who allowed myself to be sad, to let the words go into my brain. but if I can avoid the words, if I can let the words not influence me, then the "love" we say every time we meet would be meaningless…

Francie: you can leave the church, but you can't leave God lah... being a Christian is not about going to church, but is all about having a relationship with the living God. that's all I can say

Eugene: …you love your mom, and what your mom says would definitely influence you for sure, because you love her. so, listen to God we have to, but the influence does not lose its power, influence between people

Francie: church problem is church problem... every church has that. but read your bible, and we do need fellowship with brothers and sisters...so I would say in the long run you still need to find a church to go to.

Eugene: and this....is one more reason which ....is about Trinity. Trinity this word was invented by Tertullian a Latin godfather as so called by many people. this word didn't come from Jesus didn't come from God, the Bible doesn't have this word either

Francie: I think it's just what we human use to describe how the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are one. nothing wrong with the word, but also nothing too important about the word, I mean, it's just a word

Eugene: it's a word saying Father , Son and Holy Spirit are of the same essence.

Francie: yes, but they are, so it really doesn't matter how we call it bah...cause either way it doesn't not change the fact that the 3 are 1

Eugene: the word was raised about the 3rd century, when Tertullian mentioned this word and Catholic started using this word intensely. there was the other side, who thought Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of different essence.

Francie: what? but catholic doesn't believe Jesus is God neh...

Eugene: they have different hierarchies

Francie: they think Jesus is a prophet... no??

Eugene: I don't know about Catholic, so let's not talk about this

Francie: well, I believe what Jesus says. He said He and the Father are one ah! so that's what I believe

Eugene: just like.....at church many people say Catholic worship Mary, but I asked some Catholic friends, Taiwanese and Spanish, they don't know each other and they say they do not worship Mary. so actually i'm not sure if we have misunderstood them or not, this is another issue

Francie: really? that's good to know!!

Eugene: yes. I was confused in the beginning, but after sometime I realised it is because we lack sufficient communication, and let misunderstanding take over…but back to Trinity, the other group who believed Father Son and HS are of different essence. they had serious argument with the one who believed Trinity…it was a long story anyway, the other group was slaughtered or "cleaned up" after Constantine became king

Francie: and, your point is? why is this bothering you??

Eugene: we have no choice to listen to different voice. it's like we are destined to believe something, do something because of people's decision

Francie: wrong. we have a choice to choose to listen to God's voice...

Eugene: God's voice written in the Bible which was from Tertullian's side and which becomes mainstream nowadays?

Francie: no, God's voice in your heart might based on your knowlege from the bible, but sometimes He speaks to you directly. you just have to senstive and open to the Holy Spirit

Eugene: oh, this I agree, but what about Bible? which is called God's word and was from Tertullian's side?
Francie: what about it? you mean is it 100% true?

Eugene: yes, but this is not really what i'm talking about here. I mean, the other group died…
Francie: well, I, personally believe that the bible is 100% true

Eugene: …it was because of political issue, I don't think it was from God. we received the knowledge of Trinity because of the death of the other group

Francie: it's what we've got. but I think we do need God's help to read the bible. brother, do you believe that God is always in control??? if He allows we to have this bible we have, I think He knows better than we do.

Eugene: I believe God's in control, but I don't think our merciful God allows killings to happen. I believe Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but talk of Trinity, to be honest, i'm still doubting it. when my father asked me about this, I didn't know how to answer it. he thinks religion is just about political issue. so was Trinity, I can't explain why God allowed the other group to be killed if He is merciful. it is not that I don't want to believe, it's I don't know if I should believe it

Francie: our God is not only a merciful God, but He's also just. God gave us free will, we can choose to sin

Eugene: free will to kill those who keep different views?

Francie: well, it's not God's will to kill them, but human has free will... and human are selfish..

Eugene: I agree, if like you said, it's not God's will, then the Trinity we believe nowadays, is due to human cause…hey by the way, i'm really glad you texted me first. it's nice to talk with you again

Francie: anytime brother

Eugene: do you think people might forget to be sincere after having belief?

Francie: belief should make people more sincere, that's what I think

Eugene: we know people are not perfect beings. but sometimes....I wonder if we are afraid of being known we are not perfect…I mean we don't want to let our anger show because "we are Christian"

Francie: ha, we will never be perfect till the rapture takes place and we're transformed into our eternal bodies. I still get angry ah... haha! Christians are not perfect people, there's no such a thing as perfect people lah

Eugene: or probably it's just me feeling that I guess....sometimes I don't want my negative feeling show, but I have to admit by doing so it feels very lonely because found no one to talk
Francie: God wants us to be real to Him. and as your sister, I would want you to be real to me, too

Eugene: that's why I can talk to you all about this, haha!

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The above was what we talked yesterday. For now I believe I have defined myself as non-Christian anymore. Still believe in the existence of God though, I believe God is much greater than we can describe. No one can define God, not even Tertullian.